From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Wed Apr 27 2005 - 15:17:45 BST
Hi MSH,
> Since Ham is exhausted, I'll pick on my friend Platt for awhile...
> But only on a couple of points in this very long post since Arlo
> seems to be doing fine...
If he's doing so fine, how come you feel the need supply reinforcements?
> On 25 Apr 2005 at 18:27, Platt Holden wrote to Arlo:
>
> Christianity never "wielded power" for 2000 years. That's what I mean by
> your distortion of history.
>
> msh says:
> A slight exaggeration perhaps, but hardly a distortion. History is
> distorted when the fact that millions of innocent people have been
> killed by the USG in the last 150 years, much of this imperialist
> mayhem carried out well before there was anything like communism to
> "defend" us from, is sort of jammed down the memory hole by
> apologists for US policy.
Evidence? And not from Chomsky, Zinn or one of your other leftist gurus,
please.
> platt to arlo:
> Your assumption is that all governments, whether Christian or secular, are
> guilty of initiating brutality on a scale equal to modern secular
> communism. That's patently false.
>
> msh says:
> No, it's demonstrably true. Turn off Bill O'Reilley and Rush
> Limbaugh, and read a book, will ya? Besides, the brutality of Stalin was
> no more about atheism than the US slaughter of millions in SE Asia was
> about Christianity.
Are you referring to the U.S. vs. Japan in World War II? It would help if
you could be specific and cite evidence rather than spew broad
generalizations.
> platt misconstrues arlo:
> Oh my God. You compare Bush to Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot?
> That's worse than DMB lumping Pat Robertson with Hitler. Have you no
> understanding of the checks and balances that prevent any American
> president from attaining unbridled power?
>
> msh says:
> This is so incredibly naïve that I, for once, am speechless. This is a
> sixth grader's understanding of the American political system.
Why don't you give us the first grader's understanding then?
> but platt drives on:
> Can you not grasp the reality that in order to attain Marx's goal of
> eliminating economic inequalities that a concentration of political power
> is necessary, providing an open invitation to dictators?
>
> msh says:
> Again, this is about 180 degrees out of phase. A far greater
> concentration of political and military power is required to keep and
> expand the economic inequalities.
I thought you guys were against free market capitalism because it caused
economic inequalities and want to use the coercive power of government to
redistribute income in the name of "social justice."
> platt, tirelessly:
> Your approval of Marx suggest support for dictatorship since his vision
> could not possibly be carried out except by a totalitarian government, as
> the history of the 20th century proves. .
>
> msh says:
> Saying Stalin was influenced by Marx is like saying GWB is influenced by
> Jesus. If you actually had some understanding of the history of the 20th
> century, you would know that there have been successful non- totalitarian
> implementations of communist theory, always on a small scale because if
> there is any possibility of larger success such implementations immediately
> become targets of US aggression.
Where, pray tell, are these small scale "implementations of communist
theory?" Cuba perhaps? And if they really exist and are so wonderful,
how come you're not there?
> platt to arlo:
> I find your "win for rational-secular idea of freedom" unsupported by fact.
> Because men are "endowed by their Creator with liberty" puts God right at
> the center of freedom. In other words, your right and mine to liberty comes
> from God, not from a government permit based on some rational-secular idea,
> whatever that may be.
>
> msh says:
> Am I reading this correctly? You're saying that Arlo's
> interpretation is not supported by fact because God gives us freedom?
Read the Declaration" " . . .endowed by our Creator." What part of that
don't you understand?
> > [Platt]
> > > Given the history of communism and its record of genocide, those who
> > > aren't afraid of it don't understand it.
>
> msh says:
> Why is a brutal implementation of a pseudo--communist system
> sufficient for you to detest communism? The pseudo--capitalist
> system best represented by the US has its own clear record of
> genocide, and, far from fearing this system, you apparently LOVE it.
> I think this goes a long way toward explaining why the memory hole
> is so important to you.
Your "clear record of genocide" is nothing compared to the record set by
your communist friends. Have you no sense of proportion?
> Well, have at it boys... I'm heading back to the sidelines..
Say it isn't so. :-)
Platt
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic system of
exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its
unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property
instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to
destroy this system under all conditions." Adolf Hitler (Speech of May 1,
1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p.306)
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