From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Mon Oct 03 2005 - 19:12:23 BST
Hi DMB
I think that's right. When I say reality I generally
mean experienced reality in line with MOQ.
Although we can talk about other realities that are
either not being experienced at any given moment
or perhaps never will, like what it is like to stand
on Mars, even though we can imagine that it is possible.
We are as free as all the levels have made possible for us,
so that all that is possible for us, all that we can
imagine as possible can be undertaken in the world.
Seems that being able to contemplate the possibilities
open to us isimportant, and many people have no idea
how free they are, and mask their freedom in our
very conformist and pretty authoritarian societies.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: MD Rhetoric
> Howdy MOQers:
>
> DMB said:
> The idea here is that words and concepts limit us, box us into cetain
> interpretations of reality so habitually and so thoroughly that most of us
> walk around convinced that we're looking at reality, but its just our own
> limited concepts that we see.
>
> DM replied:
> How about concepts do both, they stop us seeing all that is available but
> they also let us see more clearly. They cover and uncover in the same
> moment.
>
> dmb says:
> Sure, I could go along with a qualified version of that. I'm not too
> picky. In fact I don't even think "hallucination" or "illusion" are very
> good ways to characterize static quality. I was just trying to get at "the
> limits of language are the limits of the world" idea in terms of the
> mystical experience. I say your version needs to be qualified because I'm
> concerned about the assertion that concepts "stop us seeing all that is
> available". This seems to suggest that there is some material reality we
> don't yet know, some undiscovered turf. I think its important to describe
> these cultural filters in terms of screening out certain experiences or
> kinds of experience. Its like they de-sensitize us to something we already
> know, like they make us forget, rather than hide an object from view, if
> you will. And finally, one of the main reasons why words like
> "hallucination" and "illusion" work so poorly is because there is nothing
> unreal about static patterns. Its the world we create, but that doesn't
> really mean its anything less than the real world.
>
> See, I think dis-illusionment is supposed to be a realization about the
> radical nature of freedom. I don't think its supposed to be all about
> creativity, and not just in the arts or sciences. As Paul put it way back
> in the middle of August, "...enlightenment isn't about seeing 'the way the
> world really
> is' e.g. "it really is an undivided whole," but is more about being aware
> that 'the world really isn't configured in any way in particular'.".
>
> Thanks,
> dmb
>
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