From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Thu May 15 2003 - 16:35:18 BST
Hi Paul,
> So - the Quality event - top-down, bottom-up,
> simultaneous, either, neither?
The hot stove example seems to suggest that biological quality preceeds
intellectual quality, but the situation would be reversed if you get hungry
after hearing a description of food. There intellectual quality seems to
preceed biological quality. So I don't see "bottom up" or "top down" as useful
in understanding the Quality event.
I think the point of the hot stove example is that awareness of Quality on any
level preceeds a response of any kind.
Regards,
Steve
>
> From: Paul Turner <pauljturner@yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: 2003/05/15 Thu AM 09:22:14 CDT
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Quality events and the levels
>
> Hi Steve
>
> A confession - as I was writing the post that started
> this thread I saw that the Quality event in terms of
> the hierarchy could be seen as top-down as well as
> bottom-up or indeed left to right!
>
> I thought I'd see what responses it received before
> commencing an argument with myself in cyberspace!
>
> It was this interpretation that gave me the bottom-up
> idea:
>
> 'between the instant of VISION (biological) and
> instant of AWARENESS (intellectual)'
>
> I also saw that you could interpret it as:
>
> 'between the instant of VISION (Dynamic) and instant
> of AWARENESS (intellectual)'
>
> ...indicating a Dynamic perception. Which actually
> fits the statement - 'A "dim perception of he knows
> not what" gets him off Dynamically. Later he generates
> static patterns of thought to explain the situation'
>
> So in this way, the Quality event is:
>
> 1. Dynamic response
> 2. Intellectual response (rational)
>
> and perhaps
>
> 3. Social response (symbolic)
> 4. Biological response (sensory)
> 5. Inorganic response (??)
>
> So, the biological 'seeing' of the tree happens only
> after a rational concept of the tree has been formed.
> If you've never 'seen' a 'tree' before, you don't
> 'see' a 'tree'. How does this affect the development
> of a baby description in Lila?
>
> > Though
> > Pirsig talks about
> > pre-intellectual awareness, he is talking about a
> > higher awareness preceding
> > a lower one -- preceeding all lower ones including
> > emotions (biological
> > patterns) and inorganic awareness. What the
> > mathematician perceives is more
> > like an aesthetic awareness (trans-rational) that is
> > later intellectualized
> > into formulas and theorems not a rationalization of
> > an emotional
> > (pre-rational) response.
>
> Top-down interpretation.
>
> > Inorganic patterns themselves are not
> > aware of these
> > inorganic patterns. Only a higher level pattern
> > could experience inorganic
> > quality in these secondary kinds of ways (as
> > patterns of value). Instead
> > atoms experience inorganic value directly as the
> > preference to bond with
> > particular types of atoms and rocks experience the
> > preference to fall down
> > rather than up.
>
> Definitely agree with that.
>
> So - the Quality event - top-down, bottom-up,
> simultaneous, either, neither?
>
> Squonk says drop it, it's misleading. Maybe?
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul
>
>
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