Re: MD MOQ human development and the levels

From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Tue Jun 17 2003 - 10:57:45 BST

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    Dear David B.,

    You wrote 14 Jun 2003 18:32:13 -0600:
    'the higher levels "INCLUDE and transcend" the lower ones, as Wilber puts
    it'

    According to Pirsig the levels of sq in his MoQ are discrete. I can't
    reconcile the idea that a higher level transcends and includes a lower level
    with the idea that these two levels are nevertheless discrete. Can you?
    Shouldn't this be a reason to recognize that Wilber's levels cannot be
    compared to Pirsig's levels in the way you do? I have suggested before to
    combine Wilber's level hierarchy with Pirsig's one by interpreting the
    former (as 'levels of consciousness') as subdivision of only the 4th level
    of Pirsig's hierarchy.

    I agree: Some levels of Wilber describe the 'consciousness' of people only
    participating in 1st, 2nd and 3rd level patterns of value (of Pirsig's
    hierarchy). Some describe the 'consciousness' (from 'irritability' via
    'sensations' to 'perceptions') of plants and animals only participating in
    1st and 2nd level patterns of value. Some even describe the 'consciousness'
    ('prehension') of entities only participating in 1st level patterns of value
    (e.g. an electron valuing association with a proton into a hydrogen atom).
    'Consciousness' in the sense of 'experienced distinction between symbols and
    the experience they stand for' is not sustained by 1st, 2nd and 3rd level
    patterns of value (according to Pirsig's definitions of them), however. So
    to me it seems that Wilber is in effect 'projecting down' consciousness
    (distinctions between symbols and symbolized) to where it doesn't exist. "If
    I were an electron, I would 'prehend' the better situation for the worse."
    "If I were a hominid unthinkingly copying high status behavior from other
    group members, I would choose emotionally what's best."

    With friendly greetings,

    Wim

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