From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Thu Jun 19 2003 - 16:42:09 BST
I didn't see the start of this thread, being new around here ... but,
Assuming the human development here is one lifetime development (as opposed
to human species evolution), and having found ZAMM so important already, I
was particularly stunned by the "levels" in Lila, and how parallel these
were to levels of life-and-work motivation in theories like those of Maslow,
Hertzberg, Ouichi etc, not because the specific levels themselves are
particularly analogous, but because of the relationships between levels.
The static latching - the hygiene principle, where once satified a level
becomes necessary to sustain and support higher levels, and it's loss or
breakdown is a major catastophe (unhygienic in the jargon), even though it
no longer adds positive value to the higher layer.
The moral authority - the fact that a lower level must not constrain a
higher, and must leave itself open to change from above, always trusting
that the higher recognises the value of the lower as a foundation, so as not
to risk destroying or undermining it entirely.
One of the key pieces in my jigsaw of organisational knowledge models
Ian Glendinning
www.psybertron.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
Sent: 17 June 2003 10:58
To: MD
Subject: Re: MD MOQ human development and the levels
Dear David B.,
You wrote 14 Jun 2003 18:32:13 -0600:
'the higher levels "INCLUDE and transcend" the lower ones, as Wilber puts
it'
According to Pirsig the levels of sq in his MoQ are discrete. I can't
reconcile the idea that a higher level transcends and includes a lower level
with the idea that these two levels are nevertheless discrete. Can you?
Shouldn't this be a reason to recognize that Wilber's levels cannot be
compared to Pirsig's levels in the way you do? I have suggested before to
combine Wilber's level hierarchy with Pirsig's one by interpreting the
former (as 'levels of consciousness') as subdivision of only the 4th level
of Pirsig's hierarchy.
I agree: Some levels of Wilber describe the 'consciousness' of people only
participating in 1st, 2nd and 3rd level patterns of value (of Pirsig's
hierarchy). Some describe the 'consciousness' (from 'irritability' via
'sensations' to 'perceptions') of plants and animals only participating in
1st and 2nd level patterns of value. Some even describe the 'consciousness'
('prehension') of entities only participating in 1st level patterns of value
(e.g. an electron valuing association with a proton into a hydrogen atom).
'Consciousness' in the sense of 'experienced distinction between symbols and
the experience they stand for' is not sustained by 1st, 2nd and 3rd level
patterns of value (according to Pirsig's definitions of them), however. So
to me it seems that Wilber is in effect 'projecting down' consciousness
(distinctions between symbols and symbolized) to where it doesn't exist. "If
I were an electron, I would 'prehend' the better situation for the worse."
"If I were a hominid unthinkingly copying high status behavior from other
group members, I would choose emotionally what's best."
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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