Re: MD MOQ human development and the levels

From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Fri Jun 20 2003 - 23:33:24 BST

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    Hi DMB,

    > Steve:
    > I suspect that there is an important distinction between "being dominated
    > by" a particular type of pattern and actually being a particular type of
    > pattern that would be useful here. Also of issue would be the sorts of
    > things we try to classify as a pattern. For example, how do we think of a
    > law, a country, gravity, a family, church, and so on as a pattern of
    > experience instead of as a "thing"?
    >
    > dmb says:
    > A distinction between being dominated and actually being a particular type
    > of pattern? As I tried to explain, it think the MOQ's basic structure simply
    > does not allow for the possibility of such a monolithic creature, except at
    > the very first level. Biological creatures MUST have at least two levels.
    > Normal humans, at least three and one dominated by intellectual levels has
    > ALL FOUR by definition. So the distinction you ask for is a distinction
    > between the ONLY possiblity and an IMPOSSIBILIY.

    Steve:
    I don't at all think it is impossible to talk about specific patterns of
    value. Recall the Pirsig describes the levels as discrete--not a nesting
    like Wilber's levels.

    At least now I know what you mean. You are always talking about which
    patterns dominate when you describe something or someone as social or
    intellectual and not talking about patterns of value specifically, which
    explains why you think of philosophy and intellect as having the same
    birthday 3000 years ago and why you can't see that Lila participates in
    intellectual patterns of value. I can tell that the way you think of the
    levels works for you, but it causes misunderstandings for those that don't
    realize that you don't work with patterns of value as discrete.

    What do you think about the examples that Paul gave? I agree with his
    categorizations.

    Thanks,
    Steve

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