From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Nov 10 2003 - 20:07:12 GMT
Nathan
Pirsig is suggesting that you start on the path
to knowledge from existence rather than from a theory
about what the world is made of. Objects/things are a way
of understanding your experience. It may be that the theory is
not very good. Start again, Pirsig suggests, consider what it is like
to exist, take a look at experience.
Or, look at objects/things as only a part of your experience.
You also experience feelings/values about these so-called objects.
Why do we neglect the reality of these experiences. We usually
think about objects/things in terms of quantity in science. These
is only a part of our experience, a way of measuring it. Pirsig
suggests you consider the full richness of your experience when you
ask: what is reality. He calls the full reality of experience Quality.
Quantiity
can be seen as a subset of this experience. Only once you consider how
experience is, should you move on to look at how the world might be, and
the best way to do this is to consider the big story or cosmology.
This is to get away from so-called empiricism that tries to divide our
experience into primary and secondary qualities and dismissing the secondary
ones
as only subjective.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: MD string theory
> Gert-Jan,
>
> Gert, you say 'First there is quality, then there are subjects and
objects.'
>
> Ok, it sounds a bit like Christian theology; first there was the Word,
then
> the Word was made into flesh.
>
> I am embarrassed by my obtuseness, but I am too ingrained into thinking
that
> first there are objects and then there are observers of the objects and
> finally there is thinking about the whole process.
>
> I just can't (yet) understand this quality business. Oh well, I'll keep
> trying.
>
> Nathan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gert-Jan Peeters" <gjpeeters@home.nl>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: MD string theory
>
>
> > Nathan said on 9 nov:
> >
> > Hmm, So, if there is no one in the forest, then the tree makes no sound
as
> > it falls, right?
> >
> >
> > Gert-Jan says on 9 nov:
> >
> > Indeed, if consciousness has seized to be, there are no forests with
> falling
> > trees. There is not even a 'you' that is seperated from 'the rest'.
First
> > there is quality, then there are subjects and objects. But with
> > consciousness going on outside the forest that enters the forest after
the
> > tree has fallen, the common thinking will tell you that there must have
> been
> > some noise when the tree fell. The reality you have there is an
> intellectual
> > pattern of value. Your reasoning provides you with the coherence you
need.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nathan said on 9 nov:
> >
> > Did you happen to catch the latest NOVA on PBS?
> >
> >
> >
> > GJ says on 9 nov:
> >
> > Sorry, other country.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nathan said on 9 nov:
> >
> > It was about the book called The Elegant Universe. The book discusses
> > 'string theory'. String theory postulates that all matter and all
> radiation
> > (photons, heat etc) is composed of vibrating strings of energy. That,
> these
> > strings, are the ultimate reality; the strings vibrate in 11 dimensions.
> > Since we can't imagine 11 dimensions, is it fair to say that only 4
> > dimensions exist and the strings are unreal?
> >
> >
> >
> > GJ says on 9 nov:
> >
> > I don't know the book, however I have heard about this string-theorie. I
> > think it is an example how our thinking can stack explanations ad
> infinitum;
> > neverending. First we have experience. After that the image is formed.
And
> > as with the noise of the fallen tree we have created an image about the
> > world to give us some feeling of coherence. (static patterns) Because
> > experience is reality these conclusions are also reality. Pirsig calls
> them
> > intellectual patterns of value. Those patterns can be annything. But to
> > believe that rain is formed by angels on a cloud that take a divine leek
> is
> > of lower quality then the 'real' reason behind the fact that it is
> raining.
> > Thunder and lightning can be Zeus roaring through the air throwing bolts
> of
> > lightning toward the earth. It can also be electrons traveling from here
> to
> > there. Some ideas are better then others. An idea is better when it fits
> in
> > the puzzle. And sometimes we take desperate measures to make it all fit
to
> > one another. But that's the thrill of science. And if your idea about
the
> > world only fits your experience until you have eleven dimensions, you
> should
> > go with that until something betters comes allong.
> >
> > Then you also ask: "Since we can't imagine 11 dimensions, is it fair to
> say
> > that only 4 dimensions exist and the strings are unreal?" Here my lack
of
> > knowledge comes into play. I don't know enough about this string-theorie
> to
> > bring you any further with that. If you find a giant 20 ft. footstep in
> your
> > backyard, and you can't imagine what created it, is it fair to say such
> > footsteps don't exist and therefore the thing that ruined your garden
> > doesn't exist? If the conclusion is absurd, the steps that took you
there
> > are absurd too. Now it seems the last part of the puzzle gets us into
> > trouble because we have to do strange things with our imagination to
make
> it
> > all fit. Creating theories about reality that take us further away from
> our
> > direct experience. Even away from our imagination (didn't even know that
> was
> > possible) If the last piece of the puzzle doesn't fit perfectly, maybe
the
> > surrounding pieces are wrong. What then? Then we are really exploring.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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>
>
>
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