From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Tue Nov 25 2003 - 00:29:33 GMT
Paul,
Mati said previously:
Through intellect we have capacity to understand the value of democracy.
Democracy provides for educated people of that nation to make informed
decisions about their lives through their governments. Go back to those
early clans or the early Egyptians and share the idea democracy with
them. It has no value to them; intellectually they didn't have the
capacity. This is the current struggle in Iraq, which is a strongly
rooted social system. The success of the US will be based on their
capacity to build the intellectual capacity of the country. My concern
here is the US will pull out before an intellectual capacity will be
developed.
Paul:
Good post Mati. A little disagreement (or misunderstanding, depending on
what you mean by "intellectual capacity") though. I think democracy is
described, in MOQ terms, as a part of an intellect vs. society moral
code and is not entirely an intellectual pattern of values (except as a
concept or ideology). In fact, I think that the application of democracy
is most visible as a social pattern (of government) - one that, in
principle, does no harm to intellectual patterns.
Mati responds: Ok, I have grown to believe that "intellectual
capacity", reverts back to Bodvar's SOLAQI. First, when I read it for
the first time after I had just finish LILA. Its implications didn't
seem to come through at first. But as time has gone on and the
discussion on the intellectual level continued I have grown very
comfortable with the idea. I guess the litmus test for social level is
to take a species out of the so called social group as a juvenile. Then
after a stay in captivity as an adult of that species reintroduce it to
the group. If the "social" behaviors and have been "biological"
anthropomorphized, that species will most likely pick up were it left
off. If the "social" behaviors are true social behaviors it most likely
are socially learned and the reintroduced adult with struggle and most
likely fail socially. The same litmus test I think might be true with
the intellectual level. Take an intellectual pattern of thinking such as
democracy, which functions socially but has an intellectual bases. Then
if you share this idea to primitive culture and in the case Iraq, a
repressed intellectual culture then I most likely won't latch on. I have
been reading over the last several months the Gulag Archipelago, by
Alexander S., he illustrates, again and again, how the social culture of
Russia under Stalin repressed any and all who were able to
intellectualize the times. They were seen as a threat of the social
order that Stalin wanted to create. I believe that was the case when the
Russians executed my grandfather during WWII. I finally understood that
as intellectual he was seen as a subversive and he had to go.
Paul:
I say this because the people of Iraq certainly participate in
intellectual patterns, to deny this classifies them as prehistoric. What
we had in Iraq (amongst other violations) was a repression of
intellectual patterns not conforming to those "socially approved" by the
enormously powerful static social patterns of dictatorship.
Mati: Weather it was Sadam or Stalin the same process occurred. But I
believe that there was also the primitive nature of the culture,
specifically Islam in the case of Iraq that allows those dictatorships
to find a latch of power. Intellectually there wasn't a basis fight off
those dictators. Hitler just capitalized on the strong social levels
and provided some irrational intellectual conjecture (Darwinism and
Germans and its society being the "Fittest") to gain power and then
destroyed any intellectual, as well as, social opposition
Paul:
This repression of "illegal intellectual patterns" is not limited to any
part of the world; I would think it is a matter of intensity rather than
a clear cut absence of an entire evolutionary level. The west has its
"illegal patterns" too.
Mati: What "illegal patterns" are you referring to?
Paul: Also, the way I see it, the U.S. and its allies need to
concentrate on
building some stable social patterns first to fill the vacuum created by
destroying the old ones.
Mati: I will disagree here. In principle it sounds right but won't get
you very far. The biggest threat to Iraq and it's social structure is
the threat of intellectualization. Most fundamental religious
institutions are social based instruments of God and his will.
Intellectualism is seen as threatening force to the intellectual. I
find it interesting in the US some religious radio talk shows are now
trying to create and intellectual base, based on the social structures
which really don't pass muster. The fact is I don't think MOQ or any
other intellectualization will pose a threat. Only in cases where the
religion is oppressive in nature will intellectualization takes it's
mark. What is needed in Iraq is the development of a intellectual base
that has it's roots in Islam that can sustain democracy. That is a tall
order but is not impossible, just really tough.
"Society exists primarily to free people from the biological chains. It
has done that job so stunningly well intellectuals forget the fact and
turned upon society with a shameful ingratitude for what society has
done. .....
One reason why fundamentalist Moslem culture has become so fanatic in
their hatred of the West is that it has released the biological forces
of evil that Islam has fought for centuries to control." Pirsig 353
The other reason I would say is that Intellectual level of the US that
has brought War to it country and now occupation has a difficult time
creating a rational for "Freedom" in the minds of the Iraq's. The
Iraq's will need to look beyond the social transgression and contemplate
its intellectual freedom. I hope they can do that.
Mati
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