From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Dec 22 2003 - 19:33:49 GMT
Hi Platt
Platt:As for what you consider to be a quality kind of life you appear to
suggest Pirsig's drifting around on bikes and boats, thinking and hanging
out with Indians is the kind of life we all should aspire to. But I think
Pirsig would be the last to suggest such a thing.
DM:Well I disagree, but your guess is as good as mine. I know that we are
never going to agree about politics but I hoped to try I make you ask
if things are as black and white as you seem to think they are.
I am genuinely surprised that someone of your political persuasions
love Pirsig's work. You should be as equally surprise about me perhaps.
Personally I would think that a trip around Europe would offer more
variety and interest than one around the US. Sure we have had the wars,
but the modern US population has the destruction of the indigenous people's
in their history, the civil war, and civil rights disputes. I really don't
see the US
as anything special in this respect. I agree with Pirsig (P61/62 Lila) that
the most
important thing about the US is the doctrine of 'social equality'. "Of all
the contributions
America has made to the history of the world, the idea of freedom from a
social hierarchy has been the greatest." -agreed. My point about Capitalism,
is that massive material inequality leads to social inequality. As a well
paid
professional this is not said with any envy. I also know from my working
life
that gaining material wealth often has little to do with merit. Some
inequality is no
problem, but I find it politically offensive that the seriously wealthy have
so much power.
Do these problems concern you in no way?
Here is some more Pirsig that I find it unlikely that you swallow easily
p105
Lila:
"...he came East...He didn't like the way everything gets more stratified
here.
The rich start looking richer and the poor start looking poorer. What was
worse,
they looked as though they thought this was the way things ought to be.
They had settled for this. There was no sign it was going to change."
Looks like Pirsig calls for a little DQ here. Also Pirsig's analysis of the
city, the factory,
the division of labour and the SOM style alienation are straight out of
Herbert
Marcuse who is pretty left wing. Also what about the couple that he hitches
up with for a while on ZMM, there alienation from the things they consume
seems
to concern Pirsig. Still, you seem to have managed to appropriate Pirsig for
yourself
as supporting your view in various ways, as I (in very different ways)
have, perhaps
Pirsig has produced something closer to Kafka (open to many interpretations)
than I imagined.
But thanks for the exchange, I find it interesting to see how various
American
minds tick.
regards
David M
"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: MD Battle of Values
> Hi David M,
>
> I won't comment on a lot of what you say since IMO it has little bearing
> on the MOQ but rather expresses your personal political and historical
> views. I like to see this site maintain a relevancy to the MOQ as there
> are plenty of other sites where one can discuss geo-politics, the merits
> of socialism, whether economic equality is to be desired, etc. You did
> make one reference to Lila, however, but I failed to find the passage you
> refer to.
>
> > As you know early on in Lila,
> > Pirsig expresses concern about
> > entering into a part of the country
> > where the inequality is high.
>
> As for what you consider to be a quality kind of life you appear to
> suggest Pirsig's drifting around on bikes and boats, thinking and hanging
> out with Indians is the kind of life we all should aspire to. But I think
> Pirsig would be the last to suggest such a thing. Nowhere do I find in his
> writings any suggestions as to how you and I ought to set our goals or
> live our lives other than to encourage all to follow their respective
> blisses. If you know where Pirsig says otherwise, please cite where.
>
> > Does Pirsig pursue financial gains in his books
> > as his number one value? Or does he drift around on a
> > motorbike, thinking, and hanging out with Indians?
>
> > Of course, capitalism looks
> > good from the US and also Europe. But ever been abroad to take a look
> > Platt?
>
> I've been to the Czech Republic, Germany and Italy several times and found
> the major cities I visited "dull places" compared to American cities, just
> as Pirsig describes them. I also found Europeans much more security driven
> than risk takers, possessing an attitude I describe as "hunkering down." I
> do not mean to disparage Europeans in any way. Were I European and the
> inheritor of a history of almost constant warfare, I know my attitude
> would be the same as theirs. Of course, these generalizations are subject
> to numerous exceptions. As for other parts of the world, I hear Hong Kong,
> the purest capitalist city in the world, is a marvelous place.
>
> Regards,
> Platt
>
>
>
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