From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Mon Dec 22 2003 - 22:17:47 GMT
Steve and All
20 Dec. you wrote:
Me earlier:
> > Does Pirsig say that subjects and objects belong to the intellectual
> > level?
> I didn't want to say that subject and objects belong to the intellectual
> level. I need to distinguish symbols and their referents to be more clear.
> Intellect is the manipulation of symbols in both the MOQ and SOM.
Steve, this brings us nowhere, let me just try another angle, terribly
irrelevant, but bear with me.
Way back I made a list of the "expressions" (I called) connected
with each level:
Interaction - Sensation - Emotion - Reason.
The first is more for rhyme's sake, but the rest has proved
extremely useful in understanding the MOQ - a "task" that has two
big obstacles: The first one is a mindish interpretation of intellect
and the second is diminishing the social level.
You once said that I "courted" DMB, this was for his strong
defence of the social reality. For a long time he seemed to draw
the correct conclusion from his own reasoning, but suddenly
changed course. Anyway, the 3rd. level is one of outmost
importance and required as much mental power as intellect, yet,
its expression is definitely EMOTIONAL , ref. Homer's "Iliad" which
is one long tale of unfetterd such. The blurb on the cover says:
"The stirring story of the Trojan War and the RAGE of Achilles
has gripped listeners and readers for 2700 years. This timeless,
powerful poem still vividly conveys the horror and the heroism of
men and gods wrestling with TOWERING EMOTIONS ...etc." (my
capitals)
Now, to my point. What replaced the mythological era was the age
of reason (that's applies regardless the MOQ) and the conclusion
to draw is: If one identifies the myth era with the social level - and
this is characterized by emotions - then the intellectual level must
be expressed by reason! (and that reason is the S/O distinction
can't be denied).
I could go on, f.ex refer to the analysis of Islam vs The West as
society vs intellect, something I know that Pirsig endorses. It's
plain that Islam reflects Emotions: The public burial scenes of
naked grief; the street rallies of as naked hatred, the devotion of the
Sep.11 "pilots". This compared to how embarrassing such behavior
seems to the average Westerner, our skepticism regarding emotion
and attempts to avoid it in judicial proceedings ....everything fits the
social=emotion, intellect=reason scheme. As plain is it that
intellect has nothing to do with "manipulation of symbols" or (least
of all) "mental activity".
But in spite of this indicators of the true nature of the social-
intellectual relation, when members this discussion group is called
upon to define these two levels, they seem to abandon "reason":
Society retreats back into pre-pre-historic time to become some
insignificant episode between Biology and Intellect, and intellect
follows this drift back to have its origin in song-and-dance rituals.
Even Pirsig lapses into these notions so remote from his own
convincing presentation of intellect's emergence out of society in
ZMM. Strange as he - in the letter to Paul - speaks about so recent
times as Homer and the biblical prophets as pre-intellectual.
Sincerely
Bo
PS.
You ended thus:
> I'm fine with thinking of intellect in terms of a symbol/experience
> distinction though I don't buy your claim that symbols are subjective and
> experience objective.
Maybe you don't buy it, but look at this by Amilcar Kabral over at
the MF
> > When RMP writes "independently manipulable signs" i think he's
> > referring to the fact that we have pictures, signs and words in our
> > heads that only 'stand for' what we see/hear/feel in the external
> > world.
This is SOM and it follows inevitably from the symbol-manipulating
intellect, regardless what twists and turns you may do to try to
avoid it.
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