From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat Jun 12 2004 - 10:01:48 BST
Hello Mark, all
Mark:
It is a matter for clear intellectual enquiry for anyone to compare Ayn
Rand's Objectivism with the MOQ.
Paul:
To this end, some brief comments on the Rand quotes you provided:
Rand:
My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:
1. Reality exists as an objective absolute
Paul:
Whereas in the MOQ, it is only inorganic and biological patterns that
are described as 'objective.' The 'absolute reality' is described as
value which precedes and creates subjective and objective reality as
static patterns.
Rand:
...facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or
fears.
Paul:
Whereas in the MOQ, 'facts' are described as subjective social and
intellectual patterns of value - as are feelings, wishes, hopes and
fears - and are therefore never independent of man.
"Quality, value, creates the subjects and objects of the world. The
facts do not exist until value has created them.
The birth of a new fact is always a wonderful thing to experience. It's
dualistically called a "discovery" because of the presumption that it
has an existence independent of anyone's awareness of it. When it comes
along, it always has, at first, a low value. Then, depending on the
value-looseness of the observer and the potential quality of the fact,
its value increases, either slowly or rapidly, or the value wanes and
the fact disappears." [ZMM p.320]
Rand:
2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material
provided by man's senses)
Paul:
Whereas in the MOQ, it is pre-intellectual value which identifies and
integrates the material provided by man's senses.
"Value is the predecessor of structure. It's the pre-intellectual
awareness that gives rise to it. Our structured reality is pre-selected
on the basis of value, and really to understand structured reality
requires an understanding of the value source from which it's derived."
[ZMM p.291]
Rand:
[Reason] is man's only means of perceiving reality
Paul:
Whereas in the MOQ, the pre-intellectual perception of reality as values
precedes reason.
Rand:
[Reason is] his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and
his basic means of survival.
Paul:
I think the MOQ supports Rand in that the application of reason
generally improves intellectual quality and therefore improves
intellectual knowledge and that high quality intellectual patterns are a
good guide to action. However, I think the MOQ denies that reason is the
*source* of knowledge, the *only* guide to action and that it is the
basic means of survival.
In the MOQ, it is value that is all of these things, not reason.
Rand:
3. Man - every man - is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of
others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to
others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own
rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral
purpose of his life.
Paul:
According to the MOQ, from a static point of view, the highest moral
purpose of a man's life is to pursue and evolve intellectual quality.
The pursuit of self-interest (rational or not) sounds like a
biological-social goal which, within the MOQ framework, makes Rand's
suggestion an immoral one.
From a Dynamic point of view, static patterns are extinguished leaving
neither a fixed goal to pursue nor a self to indulge.
Based on the quotes you provided, I agree with your conclusion that Rand
is incompatible with Pirsig. I also agree that the intellectual level
would not be better named as the 'individual level.'
Cheers
Paul
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Jun 12 2004 - 09:58:55 BST