From: gav (gav_gc@yahoo.com.au)
Date: Sat Jun 19 2004 - 08:42:11 BST
hey wim,
am having trouble. still siding with ockham at the
moment. see comments below.
--- Wim Nusselder <wim.nusselder@antenna.nl> wrote: >
Dear Gavin,
>
> You asked 17 Jun 2004 19:34:37 +1000:
> 'would everyone agree that the simplest and major
> distinction between the
> 3rd and 4th levels is that the
> 3rd level operates unconsciously, whereas the 4th
> level operates
> consciously.
> the evolution of consciousness being the point at
> which the 4th level broke
> from its parent 3rd level.'
>
> No. 'Consciousness' can have too many meanings to be
> a simple distinction
> between levels.
the multifarious defns of consciousness are highly
problematic. my philosophy course on consciousness was
taught by someone who thought we are always conscious
(except when asleep i suppose). my disagreement on
that position was never taken seriously by her (she
was not a good listener:-)), but i agree with jaynes:
consciousness is a flashlight in a dark room tricking
us into believing that the light is everywhere.
consciousness arose from the sophiscation of language.
consciousness is an abstract analogue of the real
world.
consciousness is where intellect operates.
> In my version of the MoQ the 3rd level is about
> (non-hardwired/instinctual,
> non-motivated) behaviour and the 4th level is about
> motivations of actions
> and explanations of experience. It can help to
> realize that
> non-hardwired/instinctual, non-motivated behaviour
> is usually unconscious,
> but it sure can be made conscious. Becoming
> conscious about hunger doesn't
> make it intellectual instead of biological.
i don't know. doesn't being conscious about hunger
bring it into the realm of ideas? ie why i am hungry,
what should i eat, etc
Neither
> does becoming conscious
> about status make status-seeking intellectual.
again, i don't know. once status-seeking has been
brought into consciousness, the intellect can help
realise these social goals (an immoral position?:
higher level serving, subordinate to, lower level).
> Acting upon the idea that
> relieving hunger is better than fasting (or the
> other way round!) IS
> intellectual. So is acting upon the idea that a
> society held together by a
> status hierarchy and by everyone striving for a
> higher status is a better
> one than an egalitarian one in which other purposes
> predominate (or the
> other way round!). Social behaviour and intellectual
> action can conflict,
> even in one person! Just as biological behaviour
> (e.g. eating when it is
> available) can conflict with social behaviour (e.g.
> fasting to save food for
> weaker or more essential group-members like pregnant
> women and children).
>
i am a little confused. is intellect where everything
is signified? seems like intellect represents every
other level, simulating them. (is this the source of
alienation?- mistaking the representation for
reality?)
i may need some help here
cheers
gav
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
>
>
>
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