MD quality is ...?

From: Nathan Pila (pila@sympatico.ca)
Date: Wed Nov 05 2003 - 04:56:59 GMT

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    David,

    Well, I just finished ZMM. I read the last paragraph this afternoon. So,
    what is there to say. I'm not sure I liked it. There were parts that were
    excellent and parts that were too turgid for my taste, but who am I to say
    what turgid is?

    I want to ask you whether you would say that 'soul' is another word for what
    ZMM calls Quality? And I am having trouble with 'expectation' as the
    synonym. Could you perhaps elaborate?

    Nathan

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:48 PM
    Subject: Re: MD Two theories of truth

    > JM:I am still promoting the word
    > "Expectation" as a more enlightening synonym for Quality and Morality and
    > Reality that drives home the ontological process of Morality.
    >
    > Nice to have someone like my post.
    > I am interested in the use of expectation.
    > Seems clear to me that DQ's activity
    > is about reducing the multi-possible
    > into the actual. Like choice and reason
    > are possible only by being aware of the future/possible
    > i.e. expectation. Expectation seems to be key
    > to evolution, without some kind of choice the cosmos
    > seems to be impossible (if you reject initial design)
    > as it is. Also in quantum theory the double slit
    > experiment of Young, can be interpreted as a single
    > electron being influenced by the presence of its
    > possibilities, so that a interference pattern is formed.
    > Is quantum probability what enables there to be a future?
    > Without an open future there would be no DQ.
    >
    > regards
    > David M
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
    > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:22 PM
    > Subject: Re: MD Two theories of truth
    >
    >
    > > hi folks,
    > >
    > > >DMB (I think says):Rorty's truth
    > > > > is such a flimsy and arbitrary kind of truth, but Pirsig insists
    there
    > > >is
    > > > > something that holds it all together, just as there is something
    that
    > > >holds
    > > > > the glass together and lets you drink.
    > >
    > > johnny: I don't see how intersubjective agreement could be called
    > > arbitrary. It is what it has to be. I think dmb imagines people having
    a
    > > meeting or something, and reaching some hasty compromise about what is
    > true.
    > > What happens is that history dictates what people believe, our shared
    > > mythos, morality, creates intersubjective agreement, and from that
    > > intersubjective agreement, more history and mythos and morality are
    > created
    > > into the future. I think we should think of intersubjective agreement
    and
    > > quality as synonyms, though perhaps each brings to mind a different part
    > of
    > > the same cycle.
    > >
    > > >Pirsig's answer says Anthony is:
    > > >The answer provided by Pirsig is that the atoms of the glass can be
    said,
    > > >metaphysically, to value sticking together.
    > >
    > > johnny: I think Morality values the glass to continue to be a glass, and
    > if
    > > we want to look at it with a microscope, Morality will value us finding
    > > atoms there, behaving morally, as expected.
    > >
    > > >Yes, value is the key. DQ is free, the only cause of SQ is DQ valuing
    its
    > > >existence, it allows it to repeat.
    > >
    > > Johnny: I agree with this definition of DQ completely. I put it this
    way
    > > though, to most everyone's chagrin: value is expectation being realized,
    a
    > > pattern is an expectation, a moral. I am still promoting the word
    > > "Expectation" as a more enlightening synonym for Quality and Morality
    and
    > > Reality that drives home the ontological process of Morality. The only
    > > reason patterns contnue (aka SQ) is because value comes from them being
    > > continued, and Love is the love of this value, the energy or force that
    > > realizes expectation so as to reap the value. Perhaps this value then
    in
    > > turn becomes the energy for Love to continue eternally.
    > >
    > > >Rorty's theory of truth is closely linked, what is true for us will
    > depend
    > > >on what we value.
    > > >Don't see why a MOQer would have a problem with this.
    > > >Value holds everything together it seems, not so flimsy.
    > > >Truth depends on language and value. Rorty and Pirsig agree.
    > >
    > > johnny: me too! :)
    > >
    > > >What we value has all kinds of sources see Charles Taylor's
    > > >Sources of the Self. The status of truth has to be similar
    > > >to the status of Newton's laws of physics as discussed in ZMM.
    > > >The 'truth' concept is a cultural phenomenon, and subject to
    > > >the quality of cultural phenomenon as Rorty discusses. Can't
    > > >see why a Pirsig reader would lose any sleep over what Rorty says.
    > > >When people here start to complain about Rorty they are always talking
    > > >about stuff that Rorty does not write about or arguing with a position
    > > >he does not take.
    > > >
    > > >regards
    > > >David M
    > >
    > > Right. I don't think Rorty is wrong about anything, I just think it
    > > obfuscates because it seems to put the focus too far down the line and
    > > doesn't highlight the dependence on history and morality. When he says
    > > truth is a cultural phenomen, it seems to denigrate truth, culture, and
    > > phenomenons all at the same time, when what is called for is great
    respect
    > > of these things. It is right that morality and truth are maleable, but
    it
    > > is morality and truth that hold themselves together even as they change.
    > > Rorty seems to be saying that it is US that do that, and that makes
    people
    > > upset. The respect should be given to Morality, not us, as we are just
    > one
    > > of Morality's creations.
    > >
    > > Johnny Moral
    > >
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